S&W 15-22 vs Ruger 10/22: Survival Rifle Debate for 2020

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There are many .22 long rifles worthy of consideration as the Last Best Plinker. In most cases, three categories of .22 rifles emerge when tossing them into piles according to similarities; those of classic variety with actions of lever, bolt, and tube-feed semi-auto. And there are those of the modern design with composite stocks, detachable box magazines, and aftermarket accessories. And then there is the Ruger 10/22, a classic design of modern or even epic proportions that everything else is compared to so it’s in a category all by itself for survival.

Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 vs. Ruger 10/22 Review

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In this exploration, a lightly blinged Ruger 10/22 will go head-to-head with a fairly trick but almost stock Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22. Now this is not a shooting match since neither gun is known as a tack driver so their performance papers would be the same and likely more of a test of shooter skill or optics power than gun performance. For those who want pure accuracy, look towards the Savage or Marlin bolt action options. This challenge will be to consider the pros and cons of the 10/22 and the M&P 15-22 through the eyes of survivalism, training, and Everyday Bug Out Carry (EBC).

Now for anyone who thinks this is not a fair fight for some reason, the 10/22 first went on sale in 1964, and the first AR-15 changed hands for money five years earlier in 1959. Needless to say that the histories of these two rifle styles have had plenty of time to sort out their personal lives. I will admit, however, that the M&P 15-22 is still a kindergartener in its current AR iteration.

Ruger 10/22 Takedown Rifle
  • Excellent Hunter's Rifle. Our Favorite!
  • Easy to assemble and disassemble
  • Easy to carry. Lightweight for a Rifle.
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Action!

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Both actions are spring-loaded blowback semi-autos. Both are proprietary designs. And both have stellar reputations for delivering the goods downrange when needed. Giving the nod to one gun over the other is a tough call since there is a 50 year history of reliability on Ruger's side, but the AR simplicity for access and cleaning is on Smith’s side. In this case, I am leaning towards the M&P 15-22 just because tear down and cleaning of the Ruger action is not fun, nor something you ever enjoy doing in the field. In fact, you would think that in five decades of pumping out 10/22s, Ruger would have evolved the design to be more consumer-maintenance friendly since the ammo has not cleaned up its act still shooting dirty after all these years. Not to mention that it requires a couple tools to even access the innards. So I think the M&P 15-22 wins so far.

The charging handle on the M&P 15-22 is straight out of the ArmaLite playbook. In fact, the only thing you would notice at first pull compared to an AR15 is that the M&P 15-22 draws less than two inches compared with the three and a half inched on a full-sized AR.  For that reason, first-time pullers will either over pull the handle stressing its plastic nature, or have the handle snap out of their grip and slam home just like it should.

Like Father Like Son

Ultimate .22LR Survival Rifle

Like the AR15, the bolt on the 15-22 locks open on the last shot allowing faster and simpler reloads.  However, a major oversight, in my opinion, was for Smith and Wesson to use a plastic (polymer?) charging handle.  The thing is flimsy, and based upon a few reports of breakage, it seems too brittle to mimic an aluminum handle in such a critical part.  In fact S&W even recommends in the fine print of the M&P 15-22 instruction manual to be gentle with it. Well, they do not quite say that outright, but read between the lines of “NOTE:  Pull the charging handle by both sides uniformly.” What do you think? I cannot remember that particular request with my S&W M&P15, the AR that the M&P 15-22 copies, but when I dug through it’s instruction manual, sure enough there was the line buried in a block of text with no fanfare except parentheses. And I quote “(uniformly by both sides).”

how to build a survival rifle

But you know, I did swap out all my AR charging handles as well for Raptors and Troys. So trading out the M&P 15-22’s plastic plunger for a No products found. ambidextrous aluminum one seemed obvious. Unfortunately the No products found. charging handle weighs 1.75 ounces or over half an ounce more than a real AR charging handle. Since the S&W plastic charging handle weighs only half an ounce, upgrading to the Plinker adds three times the OEM charging handle weight.  In defense of the No products found. it is an effective ambidextrous design leading to a more formal and satisfying pull and snap whether on right, left, or both sides.

And it’s not that the Ruger is immune to “necessary” post-purchase upgrades as well. Until recently, right out-of-the-box the 10/22 was in serious need of a No products found. and an No products found..  In this case, I prefer the 10/22’s design for moving a round into battery, but really it is splitting hairs.

Mags Not Clips

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Neither gun has any great advantage over the other with magazines. Both .22s take proprietary magazines with 10 or 25 round capacity. Both have aftermarket options of similar and larger capacity. And the prices of extra mags are within a few bucks of each other. If cornered, I have to give the nod to the 10/22 in this case for one simple reason. The M&P 15-22 mag mimics the size and shape of the standard AR 30 round mag. This means that some of the design elements of the M&P 15-22 mag are not optimized for .22 LR performance but instead to ape a real AR box.  On the other hand…When it comes to the actual magazine operation, I prefer the Smith and Wesson for it’s ease of loading, simple disassembly and cleaning, ability to occupy traditional AR mag storage solutions, and use aftermarket mag accessories such as the GRIPP Magtab made by NDZ Performance (similar to a No products found.). Or heck, just use the original Magpul Magpul.

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The 10 round No products found. rotary mag is a bomb-proof piece of hardware, but cleaning is a bear, and loading it is slow. And the 25 round Ruger BX-25 is even worse. At almost an ounce heavier than the 25 round Smith mag (6.4 oz for the Ruger and 5.6 oz for the Smith), the Ruger also takes a 3/32” hex head wrench to remove the three screws allowing access to the spring and follower. The Smith mag takes a bullet tip just like a polymer AR mag. However, the exposed spring on the Smith is vastly more likely to muddy-up than the heavily enclosed BX-25 spring.

Ruger 10/22 Takedown Rifle
  • Excellent Hunter's Rifle. Our Favorite!
  • Easy to assemble and disassemble
  • Easy to carry. Lightweight for a Rifle.
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Trigger Point

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Often a better question to ask when comparing factory No products found. is not which one is nicer, but rather which one sucks less. But in his case the stock triggers on these two guns are a wash. Neither is all that great, but then again, neither is a real problem. Both triggers are as smooth as an arthritic knee, and weigh about the same. While the 15-22’s bolt carrier group might be from another planet compared to the AR15 platform, the trigger group of the M&P 15-22 is 100% interchangeable with traditional and drop-in AR triggers.

No products found. for the Ruger are available, but enter a financial rabbit hole I managed to avoid thus far. But again, since neither rifle is designed for ultimate accuracy, both triggers are close enough but if I had to choose a winner out of the box it would be the M&P 15-22.

Taking Stock

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The Ruger 10/22 definitely wins the stock options debate mostly because the action is removable from the stock while the lower receiver on the Smith limits the stock choices at point of purchase. In fact, the main differences between the various M&P 15-22 models mostly involves the stock, whether by color or brand. Magpul is on the bandwagon with its adjustable stocks and pistol grips, but in reality that is only because of the M&P 15-22/AR15 interchangeability. So I guess if you consider being stuck in the world of adjustable AR stocks as a good thing, the M&P 15-22 might win this. But if you want to completely change the stock design from adjustable, to target, to conventional, to folding, then Ruger wins.

The durability of a fixed stock over a folding or sliding one is the same consideration as comparing fixed and folding knives. It is a matter of quality and use. If you need the stock to bash in the heads of zombies, I’d suggest a stout hardwood. But if you are going to carry the gun for miles on end, in all weather, with little concern for anything gentle, then a composite or polymer stock is the best. Plus it fits a range of users from child to adult. In fact, in the non-zombie world, the only advantage wood has over synthetic, in my opinion, is that you are always carrying around a chunk of firewood. Think about it. You could make quite a few feather sticks from your wood stock before it snaps in half when the gun is fired, but it will likely break under it’s own weight before the recoil of a .22 would make a difference.

Also Read: Ruger 10/22 Takedown Review

In the end, I really prefer a modern adjustable No products found. for general-purpose rifles. Traditional stocks have their place and will always win durability contests, but as a Last Best Plinker, I am giving the nod to the M&P 15-22 compared to off-the-shelf 10/22’s. Plus, for those of you who like to squirrel away supplies in any available nook or cranny of your rifle stock, the M&P 15-22 has no buffer spring but does have a buffer tube. Instead of wasting the space, Smith and Wesson offer it up to the user through a rubber cap countersunk into the rifle butt. And it’s a hole plenty big enough to mention.

Unfortunately, the composite stock Ruger has no access to it’s a air-filled interior. I would gladly pay an extra $20 or $30 for a nice access port into the voluminous buttstock of the 10/22 in case No products found. or any aftermarketeers are reading this.

Forethought

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The forend of the classic Ruger 10/22 has always been a disappointment to me. The barrel band is the antithesis of a floating barrel, and the utter lack of attachment points make a traditional 10/22 a questionable modern survival rifle. If the cost of a 10/22 hovered around a hundred bucks, I could forgive the design, but since the street price is two or three times higher, I expect a little more modernization.

The handguard on the M&P 15-22 is a non-easily (if at all)  interchangeable polymer quad-rail. While it looks and acts just like its metal counterparts, the plastic feel and potential durability (or lack of) makes me think twice about attaching any major-stress appliances like a QD adapter. There is a subtle but noticeable flex in the handguard when you add an accessory that gives you a longer lever arm like a vertical grip or bipod. But remember the upper receiver, the lower receiver, the stock, and the handguard are all plastic (or polymer or composite or high-tech or whatever you want to call it) so being lightweight is the positive tradeoff.

I guess the question is whether a wimpyish quad rail is worse than no rails at all. Of course there are many beefier stock options for the 10/22 that mimic the strength of an AR15 rail while not necessarily looking like one. The mission in life for the Smith, on the other hand, is to look, feel, and behave like a real AR15. Either way, the nod has to go to the M&P 15-22 because the Ruger has no real options to compare except that it keeps your palm off the barrel. Unless, of course, you do the aftermarket dance as I have, or go with one of the newer tactical 10/22 options Ruger is building.

What’s In Sight?

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The basic M&P 15-22 comes with heavy steel and aluminum iron sites. So dumping the OEM sights not only instantly drops 7.3 ounces of dead weight, but also frees up the top rail for something much better than old-school irons that requires the same A2 front sight tool as grandpa’s AR.

Losing weight is only half the picture. The M&P 15-22 is specifically designed to mirror the AR15’s operation, but not the AR’s weight. To make the M&P 15-22 feel more like an full-grown AR15, you would need to add a couple or three pounds to the Smith. In addition to leaving the heavy sights in place, and bolting on a little bling, some have suggested adding lead shot to the pistol grip. For my use, I chose the lighter side of the coin and dumped the factory sights replacing them with Magpul Gen2 MBUS polymer sights, an FDE rear and a black front.

The 10/22 is as traditional as it gets. Dovetails rule and low profile is the only choice. Most 10/22s ship with a section of rail that can be attached to the top of the receiver allowing a glass optic to be mounted, but then the factory sights are blocked unless you remove the rail.  I consider this a no-brainer. The M&P 15-22 wins.

Weight For Me!

Probably the most intoxicating feature of the M&P 15-22 is its weight, or rather lack of compared to an AR15. The M&P 15-22 weighs in at about 5 lbs, 5 oz with an empty 25 round mag. Drop the mag and you have a 4 lb 15 oz rifle. Swap out the factory peepers for the Magpul sights and you drop another five ounces. So at 4 lbs 10 oz you are roughly half the weight of a lightly accessorized AR15.

An average Ruger 10/22 weighs in about 5 lbs out of the box with no mag. The only way to drop more weight is to swap out major parts. If you want to go crazy, you can get a 10/22 into sub-4 lb territory (or 3 lbs plus if you’re a glass half-full kind of person), but by that point there will be very little Ruger anything on the gun, and a price well north of $700.

Also Read: 7 Ruger 10/22 Accessories You Need

Given all the weight variables, and that both rifles are lightweight by any standard, this is a tie. However, as you add accessories to the 10/22, you will also need to add in the weight of the needed attachment points assuming you can even find the right connector outside gunsmithing it. So having a quad of rails handy is a distinct advantage that should not be considered part of the tie.

If interested, here is a list of my favorite accessories for the Ruger 10/22.

ACCESSORIES FEATURES
Ruger 10/22 Hunter Stock review
  • Favorite Stock for Ruger 10/22
  • Quick and simple to install
  • Compatible with all Ruger 10/22 and accessories
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Amazon.com
Vortex crossfire 2 for ruger 10/22
  • Favorite Scope for Ruger 10/22
  • Anti-reflective, bright and clear views
  • Waterproof and fogproof performance
Check Price on
OpticsPlanet.com
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Amazon.com
  • Favorite Sling for Ruger 10/22
  • Made with lightweight foam. No slip.
  • Swivel test to 300 pounds
Check Price on
Amazon.com
Truglo Rifle sight for Ruger 10/22
  • Favorite Sight for Ruger 10/22
  • CNC machined. Not for carbine barrels.
  • Front diameter is .060" and rear diameter is .035".
Check Price on
Brownells.com
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Amazon.com
  • Favorite Magazine Release
  • Drop in part. Easy to install
  • Speed increase between Mag changes
Check Price on
Amazon.com
Handle for Ruger 10/22 review
  • Favorite Bolt Handle for 10/22
  • Ready-to-go. No gunsmithing needed.
  • Made in USA
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Check Price on
Amazon.com

Cost of Sending Goods Downrange

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On a good day, the price of .22 ammo is about $20 per 500 rounds ($40/1000), or four cents per bang. The price of .223 runs around $399/1000 or forty cents per bang. In other words, an AR15 is 10 times more expensive to shoot than a .22. Of course your mileage may vary. But if we carry this further, you save about $360 per thousand rounds shot meaning that that the M&P 15-22 would pay for itself in AR training experience by about your 1400th trigger pull.

The Ruger 10/22, on the other hand, would offer the same bangs per penny as the M&P 15-22, but with none of the muscle memory AR advantages. Of course if an AR15 is not on your list today, then the choice between the two will be based upon other variables which might include the inverse decision of avoiding the M&P 15-22 at all costs specifically because it does look like an AR15.

A Second Opinion

There is another side to this story in that the M&P 15-22 is not the only player in the .22 LR AR space. HK makes a .22 copy of their AR-like carbine named the 416, Colt farmed out an AR “replica,” and there are some popular conversion kits to turn your favorite (or least favorite) AR into a .22 LR masterpiece.

There are, however, some significant problems with the aforementioned AR-22 options. With the HK, the list is easy. The HK has a fake bolt release paddle, a fake forward assist, a fake gas block, different length receiver pins which are non-retaining, disassembly not recommended by the company, a sleeved ⅓ inch outer-diameter actual barrel with a non-standard muzzle thread, is heavy like the big brother it’s seems jealous of, it’s expensive, and the final coffin nail– it’s not made by HK.  Instead it’s subcontracted to Walther and Umarex, a big name in the Airsoft world.

Also Read: SHTF Firearm Choices

The Colt is not much better. Colt’s offering in this class looks and hefts like a real AR15/M16, but that’s about where it ends. In addition to a fake forward assist, and dysfunctional dust cover, the pistol grip, stock and trigger are proprietary, the barrel is a shrouded pencil like the HK, and the bolt is a total one-off that is not to be removed or serviced by the user. Plus the bolt closes on the last shot. Oh yes, and there is the same Walther/Umarex subcontracting.

On the conversion side, well, the first clue might be the word conversion. Whenever you have to convert something into something else, you will suffer design problems by having to conquer the shortcomings of the starting point. In the case of an AR15 converted to an AR22, the obvious targets are the cost (an AR plus the conversion kit), .22 LR specific magazines, and that the .22 LR must be shot out of a 5.56mm barrel diameter. Not really a problem unless you’re a fan of accuracy. The bore diameter might be close enough, but the twist is off by more than a factor of two (5.56 @ 1 in 7 and .22 LR @ 1 in 16, and the M&P 15-22 has a 1 in 15 twist). Further, a zeroed sight is not interchangeable between the two bullets. About the only way to combat this conversion conundrum is to go with an expensive dedicated AR .22 upper with its own sights or optic. That will solve some of the problems, but adds even more expense. And either way, the .22 LR is a notoriously filthy cartridge so your precious AR15 will get all dirtied up when enjoying the benefits of the smaller cheaper round.

Final Curtain or Encore?

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In the end, a .22 rifle dedicated to mimicking the venerable AR15 is an excellent option for training new shooters, and for inexpensive practice with experienced shooters, and just a darn fine reliable .22 rifle that is much quieter than a centerfire AR as well as having negligible muzzle blast. But the benefits of such a beast are weighted heavily towards the AR-side over the .22 side which might be a highly desirable standardization on its own.

The Ruger 10/22, on the other hand is a proven design that in spite of the takedown/cleaning issues, this dedicated .22 platform has plenty of self-confidence and couldn’t care less about the other guns in the safe. Since a .22 LR is an absolute must for anyone with a clue, the real question when deciding between the Ruger 10/22 and the Smith and Wesson M&P15-22 is not which gun you will buy, but rather which gun you will buy first.

Ruger 10/22 Takedown Rifle
  • Excellent Hunter's Rifle. Our Favorite!
  • Easy to assemble and disassemble
  • Easy to carry. Lightweight for a Rifle.
Check Price on
Brownells.com

All Photos by Doc Montana



Doc Montana
Written by Doc Montana

Doc honed his survival skills through professional courses, training, and plenty of real-world situations, both intentional and not. Doc lives to mountaineer, rock climb, trail run, hunt, race mountain bikes, ski, hunt, and fish. Doc Montana holds PhD’s in both Science Education and Computer Science and currently teaches at a University in the northern United States. Read his full interview here. Read more of Doc's articles.

26 thoughts on “S&W 15-22 vs Ruger 10/22: Survival Rifle Debate for 2020”

  1. If your looking for a total function AR type 22lr, I'd say Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 gets the nod.
    But if your looking for a AR type look without the functions Ruger makes the SR-22 . The front hand guard in the SR-22 is on the heavy side, which makes the rifle feel off balanced & front heavy. The price of the SR-22 is about double of your stranded Ruger 10-22 at least in my area. The SR-22 is a pain to take apart if you want to do a proper cleaning.
    The take down Ruger 10-22 is a latest model that I like, easy to clean the barrel from the chamber end, as for the standard 10-22 would require a lot more time to disassemble to do a proper cleaning from the chamber end.
    Both the Smith & Wesson M&P and the Rugers 10-22 are not tack drivers, but do a decent job for what they are.
    I like the 10-22 simply because , I can get all types of parts & accessories from different company's for the Ruger 10-22. As an added bonus the Ruger is classified as non-restricted in Canada. Not so for the Smith & Wesson, it's classified as restricted like a handgun. Ya I know stupid Canadian laws.

    Reply
  2. A few points to make, mostly I'm favor of the 10/22. One is bulk. The M&p, emulating the AR, is made bulkier by having a pistol grip and taller receiver. In addition, the magazines are much bulkier. Fitting the m&p mags in ar mag pouches is a matter of convenience, but not the best solution. To my knowledge no one else makes ar pattern 10 round 22 magazines with the dimensions of the 10-22 rotary mags.

    As far as the plastic charging handle, I've broken aluminum handles by a combination of mortaring stuck cases out and pulling assymetrically, so it is an issue shared with standard handles, although several companies have introduced superior products that are much more durable.

    My final point is why would you ditch the plastic handle for fear of breakage, and then ditch the steel sights for plastic? If the plastic sights break the gun is almost as useless as with a broken charging handle.

    As far as accessory compatibility, how many accessories do you need on a .22? For people with little self control when it comes to tacti-cool accessories the lack of attachment points becomes a blessing, but for practically minded people all you really need is a scope, perhaps a flashlight. The scope is easy to add and enhances precision, but adds weight and bulk. The light also adds weight and bulk, as well as battery dependence. I couldn't count how many varmints I've killed around my chicken pen with a 10-22, Marlin 990, or 22-45 in one hand and a handheld light in the other. .22s are light and easy to handle one handed, and with a little practice one doesn't have to limit oneself to a weapon mounted light. Even if you sling the weapon, the light stays in play.

    Anyways, this is my first time commenting, I'm dreadfully long-winded, I know, something I'll have to work on. I enjoy this website and have found it an insightful and thought-provoking source of information, and look forward to having some interesting discussions.

    Reply
    • Good question about plastic sights vs plastic charging handle. First of all, not all plastic is created equal, nor engineered appropriately for its use. The Magpul sights are extremely durable and have actually out-survived aluminum ones in drop-tests. Plus, the plastic rails are more likely to crack/shatter if there is a heavy metal vice-grip sight attached rather than one with a little give and even distort if needed such as the Magpul.

      The charging handle is a long narrow thin brittle plastic piece that concentrates the forces rather than distributes them. Plus there is inherent flex in the design and sharp force applied to the handle which the sights do not not encounter under normal use.

      Finally, broken sights are not actually a deal killer, but a broken charging handle is. As long as the gun cycles fine, you can shoot it. Accuracy suffers, but in reality, a 15-22 without sights is easily just as accurate as a handgun if not more.

      But when the dust settles, the 15-22 is not a battle rifle. It is a .22 in an AR form factor. If I really wanted an indestructible "twenty-two" I would get a Glock 22.

      Reply
  3. I own both and would have to say, it depends on your needs. The M&P is easy to strip and clean and gives you a cheap training tool for your AR-15, if that is your want. The open magazines are a potential weakness.

    The Ruger is harder to clean, though tolerant of muck. The magazines are enclosed. There is the take-down version for back backing and an almost infinite range of stocks, including folders and adjustable, that would address most realistic needs. Sights on both can be upgraded and fine tuned to taste. Both are sturdy and reliable with many after market options. Both are great fun to shoot.

    Reply
  4. Having shot both of these guns, I can say that I really honestly like them both. I think if i was going for something that has the ability through aftermarket support to be a bit more of a target gun, I would lean towards the 10/22. I can handload to drop the cost of training with 5.56; my .22s need to be seriously accurate for collecting small game or dispatching unwanted critters quickly without getting into tooth/claw/quill range. Great read!

    Reply
  5. Having both, well two of the AR -22's. Wife and I use them and with my wife being 4'10, the adj. stock fits her perfectly. Bought my first 10-22 years ago. Been carried all over the mountains of Co. and Montana. Five years ago I wanted to get the old girl into tack driving mode. Long story short. Thumb hole stock, lament and special order Bull Barrel. Had twist faster. And as we all know? Most guns have a round that it likes. After firing 100 rounds of EVERYTHING out there? My 10-22 came into its own! I had the tack driver I knew it could be! But only with the Rem. Yellow Jackets. The worst rounds? Milk carton 22's! IF they went off, they were all over the paper at 50 yds! But with the YJ rounds? 6in. groups at 100 yds were fun to see. And at 50? This old man eill carry it when the shif starts. And one side note. Weigh 500 rounds of 223. Then try 1000 rounds of 22. We, wife and I, can carry that! Sucks to get old! Later all. Glad I found this site.

    Reply
  6. Comparing with after market upgrades is apples and oranges b/c someone can always out add you on accessories.

    Out of the box its plastic vs. metal…Go with the Ruger.

    Reply
  7. I like Ruger it is more streamlined but if your an AR platform type and can afford the extras so be it.

    I have fired one for a lark it seems good but I have not had a life long relationship as I have had with the ruger.

    i look at the AR like I do the AK in a prone position or in a hide it is not sleek and compact If I need a hicap mag
    it is only a quick change and I am there if I am traveling through wait a minute vines any AR platfom is not my first
    choice.

    Ted Lewis
    you made a great point shoot everything and settle on what works and only what works that is the key that most novice shooter never understand why they cannot perform as other shooters they lack consistancy in the
    ammo brand bullet weight and power level all companies make standard high and ultra high velocity rounds with diffwerent weights and any change moves point of impact.

    Every weapon is different I found that if I can get my rifle to shoot prcision I an make some adjustments to my side arm and it can shoot decent with the same rounds sometimes as well then your lucky sometimes they are like oil and water.

    I am with BAMAMAN and other on the Ruger I have though it out if I have a few of the same models of anything
    I know I can cannabalize one and keep the rest functional or as I have extra parts I keep in the buttstock
    front sight extractor pin & spring and a few others if I had 3 different arms it would be more complicated IMO.

    also functionality is different if your in a family group the arms should be as similar as possible so if there is a
    problem there are no operational differences or else murphy will step in when you need to be fluid your handling a unfamiliar piece and yours is on the other side of the room.

    Reply
  8. What do you think of the Ruger 10/22 handgun Charger? I'm rather enamored since I already have mags for the rifle. Also, what caliber does the lowly .22 cal when the HP opens up? I was thinking in reference to damage created.

    Reply
    • .22 hollow points typically aren't going fast enough to expand at all from short barrels, and high velocity rounds from long barrels don't expand very much, but I don't have any references to numerical figures at the moment.
      I too was enamored with the charger pistols at first, the thing that broke the deal was lack of iron sights. They're light and compact, but you are pretty much required to mount a scope which negates much of the advantage.
      I may get a charger anyways, and see about mounting iron sights to it myself. If i do, I'll document it and share the information with any who ask.

      EDIT:
      Just found a replacement barrel for the Charger pistol with iron sights, $180 at Green Mountain. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/901823-10-stainless-

      Reply
  9. Not to be antagonistic but never try to make something into what it is not .

    A pistol is by nature somewhat concealable a rifle is thicker and bulkier so making it shorter does not make it better.

    I like commonality of ammo I want at least combat accuracy from point blank out to 200 yards.
    Since my mind set is survival and in a very small group all I want to telegraph to any opponent is it is not worth the risk and I would rather avoid contact untill I am comfortable and have a resonable amount of security.

    I liik at having a 3 gun concept rifle, pistol and plam gun one needs to be semi auto the others any combination
    but one need to give you the ability to put a lot of lead down range and have a minimum of 10 round capacity.
    a palm gun for when your asleep or have your pants around your ankles and others think your not armed.

    Since history show that most disasters and setbacks take 1 to 20 years to climb out of I want the most I can get
    and durable for the long haul as well as a stock of ammo 22LR fits.
    It will require different tactics but it lends itself to being more cautious, I like caution and tactics I am reminded of the saying, "only fools rush in"
    As I am older weight needs to be balanced with other supplies and tools If I can carry 3 for the same weight as one
    I will make the adjustments in hunting and tactics to make it work, so I can have a large supply of ammo because I know or think I will have 0 chance a resupply.

    No one is wrong if your young and strong an extra 40 pounds may not be an issue I can see all sides I choose
    my needs for the region I live in and what I think I can handle for an extended period of time.
    I hope withing 90 days things will settle to a dull roar if anything does happen but I am not counting on it

    I do want to touch on the fact that you need lubricant, tools and cleaning gear to maintain your equipment.
    I have a 87 piece mutitool with case and cary a bore snake and have checked that I have a separate set of
    simple tools to take down and clean weapons.
    this leads to another consideration that weapons need to be as uncomplicated as possible if parts go flying or fall of when the stock or grips are removed are a non starter.
    In fact a speaker magnet is a good idea as a parts holder.
    the 10/22 Ruger single six are wash and wear the Ruger MK I II or III or 22/45 are good but you need to practice
    reassembling new they are very tight and require tilting and holding your mouth right to get them back together.

    so have tooth brush, double ended dental pic a few bore brushes allen wrenches and drivers to take down
    a dedicated microfiber cloth and a tube of semichrome polish like Flitz and a tube of synthetic weapons oil.
    since your carrying knifes a stone and a diamond steel these can remove burrs and smooth parts if need be.
    things happen in the field like dropping or rust.

    last a charger would suffer from taking a beating unless it is on a chest rig and as was stated the shorter the barrel
    the less efficient it is balistically I am not a hollow point guy when it comes to 22LR all penetration tests show
    they do not go deep enough in gel if you add tough hide or bone you need all the advantage of penetration
    because your limited by 22LR as it is but you also do not want to go to heavy I have seen some of the new bullets
    and I will stick with high velocity & 40 grain it is the sweet spot of weight and speed 1265 FPS and 40 grains
    I have hunted with this for years it does require precision shooting but nothing most people are not capable of.
    like a golf ball at 25 yards to 50 yards will kill most game.

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  10. The M&P is the one AR 22 platform which mimics the full-size AR 223 over all the others. I do not see it as a end of the world piece of equipment, however it shines when you look at it for a training tool. To take someone who has not shot a gun before starting out with the 22 caliber rifle is the way to go. Then when they progress up to the full size weapon it is a very easy transition. Although costly when you consider having the same trigger in both guns that transition is even more smoother. Although the picatinny rail is made of plastic you still can put a light and red dot optic again to mimic your full size weapon. I look at this gun as being more of a training tool to sharpen my skills while not breaking the bank.

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  11. Where do you find .22lr ammo anyway. I looked at a marlin .22lr rifle and Ammo and found no ammunition for it so instead I bought a .22 pellet rifle with ammo

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  12. I prefer the 10-22 over ALL 22 rifles—decades of service—lots of parts available. For those who dislike the trigger pull, you don't have to replace the trigger group—just a few inside trigger parts from Volquartsen and you have a 2 1/2 lb trigger—very nice…

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  13. The M&P doesn't really have a place in SHTF situations IMHO. It's a wannabe gun for those that can't afford the real ar15. Yes, blah blah blah it provides inexpensive training on an ar-ish platform for less ammo money. But really? Seriously? Who just doesn't shoot their AR instead anyway? For the 99.99% non military people in this country its kind of silly to justify that flimsy excuse even. Compared to a 10/22, it's too big and clumsy for what the ruger already does, it's plastic, and generally all aesthetics. I'll go for the tried and true steel, wood, and aluminum 10/22 anyday over that thing.

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  14. I have both, and like both… but I prefer the M&P-15/22. It's more accurate than my stock Ruger 10/22, and doubles as an AR-15 training aid. Although parts might (currently) be more ubiquitous for the10/22, there is no question… I will eventually sell my 10/22.

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  15. bought a .22 upper for an Ar.Never was able to empty a magazine without a jam of one type or another.took it back to store purchased from.they had it for a couple of weeks,sent it back to me as problem solved.Tried shooting it again.Same problem,maybe one of these days I'll take it back to the Arizona dealer I purchased it from.It has lived in a case since its return to me

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  16. Hey Nick—I would NEVER sell a 10/22—what if you need to arm a GF or someone else who has no rifle experience? Having an extra 22 around is just common sense…

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  17. Rather alarmingly, I've noticed that both of my 15-22s are now suffering from 'buffer tube droop'. What started as an almost imperceivable droop has now progressed into something that is very obvious. Has anybody else noticed this on there's? Looks like the plastic might be prone to changing shape over time?

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  18. I purchased a CMMG 22lr upper for my wife's Diamondback DB-15. Full standard AR-15 manual of arms. The upper is easy to swap out and it uses S&W 22 25-round mags. It's a tack driver out to 50 yards when paired with her Leupold scope and "good" ammo, and fun as hell to run-n-gun on the steel course at our range wearing a Black Spider red dot shooting Winchester M-22 "plinker" load. We've prolly put ~800 rounds of .223 / 5.56 through the DB upper and easily / definitely put 3,000 rounds of .22 through the CMMG upper (within the last 5 months). Maaaaaaaybe 5 FTEs and / or misfeeds, very likely because of hot dirty chamber. [Truth in advertising, that failure rate excludes one *really* bad day with 15 or so failures (FTF/FTE) before I "retired" it for the day — threw out a 100-pack box of Remington ammo].

    All that to say; a 22lr rifle can be what you need it to be, provided you're willing to spend the right cash. The CMMG upper cost me $600. Part of me laughs at myself for an a$$hole for paying that much for a 22 upper. That said — it is OUTSTANDING. Wife can train fully standard manual of arms and rail off mag after mag — definitely made up for the cost vs the expense of .223. The handguard, foregrip, furniture match exactly the .223 upper. Truly a training tool.

    SHTF? .223 upper absolutely. She might need to knock down frickers wearing IBA. I'm shooting 300BLK — not an issue.

    Bug-out situation? Definitely *not* a plastic AR wannabe. If I *had* to choose a .22 for bug-out, it'd absolutely be a wood and metal Ruger 10-22 takedown.

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  19. Some interesting reading here, I appreciate the info shared by those with more experience than I. I have 2 10-22's one in a convetional configuration, synthetic stock with a decient scope. The other I set up as a bumpfire, yea I just wanted to have something my buds didn't. I bought the kit open box at a gun show. Had to file the heck out of the Jard trigger to make it fit. Suprise I don't get real consistant bumpfire. I was wondering if anybody has tried a bumpfire kit with the BX 25 trigger. Next up would be the Timmeny (sp) but then it's getting expensive for a 22. Anybody out there try a bumpfire with the BX 25 with good results? I've got an bumpfire AR in 9mm (works great) cal next cheepest alternative. Have an AR 223/556 as well. And just discovered AR 57. I'm at the point in life where I can enjoy the things I like, but in the background want to be proficient for home invasion or if SHTF. For home invasion Mossberg 500 and XD 9mm or the FiveseveN. Ive taken the time to estimate shooting angles and distances.

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  20. my m&p 15-22 takes almost any upgrade available for a standard ar; and, with a few of these upgrades (l/w bipod, drop in trigger group, etc), along with a nikon p-22 scope, I can keep an entire 25-rd mag in a fist-sized area at 100 yds…you shouldn't belittle what you obviously don't understand…peace

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  21. Fair review to a point. I have several Rugers. A ton of magazines and parts. I have shot my Friends 15-22. It is a very nice gun, fun to shoot, light, easy to handle. But since I have 10/22s I am more apt to keep buying or building them. One thing and only one thing that turned me off completely from the 15-22, and that is the stock. The buffer tube does not come off, and if that gets damaged you would be screwed.

    10/22 just has the long and well deserved reputation.

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  22. Have both. Love both. The S&W is more fun to shoot. Don't know why, but all my boys and friends agree. New shooters do very well with it, so they get excited about shooting when they can hit hit what they aim at with just a little instruction. That it's almost identical to an A/R makes no diff to me. It's a great, fun .22. The 10-22 is a take down, great shooter as well. Cleaning isn't quite as easy as the S&W, but it's really not a big deal either. I like the smaller mags, cuz thier smaller. I like the S&W mags cuz their easier. The adjustable stock on the S&W is a huge bonus for different age/size shooters. Had to put a Volquartsen extractor on my 10-22 to get decent ejection, but that was inexpensive and fun. Just put a scope on it, so need to go shoot: dang! I'll keep the iron sights on the S&W. The bolt release is squirrely on the 10-22, but it works. I prefer the last shot hold open on the S&W, which the 10-22 doesnt have. I could care less about Most of the add-ons for either: I like simple. Can't go wrong with either, but I recommend getting both, and take someone with you when you go shooting!

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  23. S&W makes a MAGPUL MOE version. MOE SL butt stock & SL pistol grip, MOE plastic sights. I found it for $360 inc. shipping & am thinking about buying it. I always find the AR model that has the most stuff I want & least that I would change. I also have 2, 10/22s, a USST 2008 Commemorative & an '81 Walnut stocked Sporter, both with Clark trigger parts. I want the S&W for "muscle memory" & cheap practice.

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